hi, everybody. good evening. i'm thomas roberts. welcome back to msnbc's special live coverage of the ongoing debt ceiling debate. it's just 74 hours now the u.s. government will default for the first time in our country's history unless republicans will agree to sign on to raising the debt ceiling. and at this hour, senate majority leader harry reid is desperately trying to convince enough republicans to sign on to his version of a debt ceiling bill. this has been a day filled with backroom negotiations, dueling press conferences on all sides, white house meetings, high-level theatrics in both chambers. take a look. >> throughout this debate over

guarantee i guaranteeing insane, never-before-seen in the history of this country spending, president obama has coolly stood on the sidelines. the president has no plan. only the republicans have offered plans. >> there is absolutely no excuse for this reckless, unpatriotic behavior on the part of the republicans. the republicans led by their tea party radicals are determined to cripple government and destroy medicare, medicaid, and social security. >> what i think is not helpful is the process we're going through here on the senate floor. >> we are here today, right now, for this reason. it's spelled f-i-l-i-b-u-s-t-e-r. filibuster. >> so we watched the clock tick. at this point, the worst-case scenario is a failure of reid's bill. a vote on that bill is scheduled for 1:00 a.m. that's coming up in just three hours. and if that happens, a new bill will have to be crafted,

scheduled for a vote on the senate floor some time on monday or tuesday, and then shipped on to the house and then finally to the president's desk. joining me now is chuck todd, chief white house correspondent for nbc news. chuck, bring us up to speed. because we got this hot note that we were going to see senator reid return to the senate floor chamber. >> well, it's possible. look, there's clearly a lot of progress supposedly being made the -- and remember, we're on two tracks of a negotiation. you've got harry reid who is using in particular kent conrad, president of the senate chairman committee, doing a lot of negotiating, trying to find enough republicans, seeing what it would take amendment-wise to make his bill good enough to get the 60 votes. and then you have, of course, what senator mcconnell, the republican leader and vice president biden have been talking about. they've talked at least four times on the phone since i think 3:00 this afternoon, and probably a couple more times since. so the chatter that you're

hearing among some inside the senate is that we could be hearing a potential delay simply in the reid vote. not pulling it off the floor, doing any of that, but since there is so much -- so many moving parts in different talks, the question is, do you send the senate home? do you let them get a good night's sleep, and then do you bring them back? you could make an argument that if he's looking to score a few brownie points and harry reid's trying to find a few more republicans to bring over, letting them get a good night's sleep might actually help his cause, not hurt. so we'll see. again, that's just staff chatter. this is not anything other than that. but there's clearly a lot. we do know there's a lot of incremental progress being made in the talks between biden and mcconnell. don't know for sure of any progress on reid's front trying to find 60, but that would be the type of announcement that wouldn't be a total shock at

this hour of the night. >> break down the options, there would only be two, right, chuck? the options of, yes, we're going to go through with a vote or, no, we're not going to go through with a vote. >> well, there's that. the reason to have this vote right at 1:00 -- that's the earliest he could have the vote when he filed the bill. and the reason to do that is -- the reason to do -- and it looks like we're getting some news coming in here, so i just want to check this. so forgive me here. and it looks like he's going to the -- it's my understanding that majority reid is going to the floor now. and everything that we're hearing is that what we're going to hear, about a delay in the vote. just talked to somebody else at some point, possibly doing that. so we should keep an eye on the u.s. senate here that he is going to be going to the floor. the reason for the 1:00, that's

the fastest way, and everything's about this count. everything is about giving the house as much time as they can before midnight august 2nd to get this vote through. because, remember, as much of a nail biter as this is, putting together this humpty dumpty that they're going to have to put together to get this thing passed through the house is not going to be easy. is it going to be two-thirds republicans, one third democrat. two-thirds democrat, one third republican? it all depends if it's more biden/mcconnell, probably more two-thirds republican, one third democrat. if it's more of the harry reid side of things, it's probably two-thirds democrat, one third republican. so that's another reason for the necessity of the clock. >> chuck, as with we have been pointing out, 70 plus hours to go until the nation would default. when we talk about the vote being scheduled for 1:00 a.m., after the stroke of midnight tonight, and that's buying as much time as could be getting to a vote and then the nation not defaulting, when the senator scheduled it for that time, is that out of an abundance of

confidence or was that basically just out of, we've got to look at the clock? >> everything is about the clock at this point. i mean, we really are -- and while there are a lot of things, you know, that congress can expedite things, when they really want to, particularly in the united states senate, you do have a lot of procedures you have to go through. and andrea mitchell brought it up. it doesn't matter what 85 senators might agree to. if, you know, you have some that are just, you know, don't like not using their power, where one senator can sit there and they want their debate time or they want to try to prevent something from going, throw up a legislative hurdle, this or that, that's why you want to make sure you're -- you file these bills in a way that you can handle the worst-case scenario. >> but how do you announce this delay? he would just come out and say -- >> well, we don't know. he could simply tell -- he's telling the senate to go home. i could tell you this, i know that libby lease, our senate

producer is quoting a dem aide saying the vote will be tomorrow, but we don't know what time, 1:00 a.m. is still tomorrow, or it could be 12:00 noon, which is some of the other chatter we're hearing. the reason for -- you go back to why would reid not just -- mcconnell has been trying to pressure reid to pull his bill. and part of that could be politics and posturing, in that you successfully kill boehner. and we should let go and let harry reid talk, it looks like. >> mr. president, there are negotiations going on at the white house now on a solution that will avert a catastrophic default on the nation's debt. there are many elements to be finalized, many elements to be finalized, and there is still a distance to go before any arrangement can be completed. but i believe we should give everyone as much room as possible to do their work. i've spoken to the white house quite a few times this evening. they've asked me to give everyone as much time as possible to reach an agreement,

if one can be reached. for that reason, we'll hold over the vote until tomorrow at noon to give them more time to talk. in fact, we'll come in at noon and have the vote at 1:00. i'm glad to see this move toward cooperation and compromise. i hope it bears fruit. i'm confident that a final agreement that will adopt a senate long-term approach rather than the short-term band-aid proposed by house representatives will move forward. there can be no short-term agreement and i'm optimistic that there will be no short-term arrangement whatsoever. i'm also confident that reasonable people from both parties should be able to reach an agreement. i believe with we should give them time to do so. mr. president, i ask anonymous consent that the court should vote on the reid motion to pass 627 with amendment number 589 occur tomorrow, sunday, july 31st, at 1:00 p.m.. >> is there objection? hearing none, it is so ordered.

>> mr. akaka? >> so chuck, the vote is now delayed by 12 hours, moving from a 1:00 a.m. tomorrow until 1:00 p.m.. >> that's right, thomas. and at this point, that is about trying to, as he just said, buy time. that had been what we were hearing in the last 20 or 30 minutes, and the question was, was harry reid and chuck schumer ready to go along? they are. and there you go. could be a long time. it's going to be a sleepless night for some, just not for about 95 members of the united states senate. >> right. and senator reid saying that the negotiations continue right now, as we speak, at the white house. so what could they be trying to fin finalize? >> what they're looking at is, it goes right back to this week. we keep talking about the trigger. i know we're speaking in legislative speak here. but this is this penalty that if, as you know, this thing is set up into two parts.

a round of cuts up-front that gives a -- raises the debt ceiling for the next six months, and then another round where the debt ceiling's basically raised. you'd have this vote of disapproval, that whole, if you recall a couple week ago, the mcconnell way of creating that, that's actually in this version of the reid bill, would be in there. so there would have to be a supermajority disapproving of the president's debt ceiling. so it essentially gives the president the debt ceiling raised all the way through '13. but another round of deficit reduction would have to be committed. there would be this super committee that would be created. if they don't succeed, if they're deadlocked, they've got to find the cuts somewhere. the reason they keep calling it a trigger, because the point is, what happens if they don't act, but you want it to be the type of penalty that would force everybody in there to want to act. so, obviously, democrats have been arguing, that's why revenues should at least be part of a trigger, meaning a potential tax hike, and i've

heard one idea, with for instance, is the so-called amt fix. this is this issue, it's a tax -- part of the tax code that always gets fixed and essentially eliminated. but it would affect a lot of people if it didn't, if that fix went away. there is some talk, if you make that a trigger, that would affect everyone, democrats and republicans. they unanimously like to say, fix this. no one expected it to hit as many middle income people as it does. that that would motivate them to find their fix, toot the tax reform, toot the entitlements. and democrats are still upset that all of the trigger ideas, that even the white house is warming to, are ones that they feel like are tilted toward the republicans, meaning that anything that happens would hurt -- would be with something that a lot more republicans would be with okay if that trigger went off than a lot more democrats. >> chuck todd, good to have you with me, buddy. don't go anywhere, though.

we've got a little while longer to go. i know you're off the hook not having to go until 2:00 a.m. now and you're smiling -- not that i'm smiling -- >> making plans. i know you're making plans now to do something. >> you are too, buddy. >> no, no, not yet. stay with me. i want to talk now with senator bernie sanders from vermont. he's an independent. sir, good to have you on. i know it's a busy night for us. but i want you to tell us, do you think that harry reid is going to have the votes when it comes now to 1:00 p.m. tomorrow? >> no, the real question is whether he should have the votes. i mean, i think sometimes the media thinks this is a game between the red sox and the yankees. it's not. this is going to impact millions of senior citizens, children, veterans, and the sick. so the question is not who wins or loses, it's, who should win. my fear is is that despite the fact that the wealthiest people in this country are doing phenomenally well, that you have huge corporations making billions in profits and not paying one penny in taxes, the republicans have been adamant, absolutely firm, that the rich

and the powerful should not play any role in deficit reduction and the entire burden should come down on the middle class and working families. i think that is morally grotesque and bad economic policies. so we have got to look at what the proposal is and not worry so much. i think the media gets into process, who's win, who's losing, who's negotiating? i fear very much that there will be massive cuts in social security, medicare, medicaid, all kinds of programs that working families desperately need. and the wealthiest people are doing so well are not going to contribute one penny. that is my concern. >> well, i think the media's trying to figure out what everyone is doing there in washington, because everyone seems to be putting off their job and putting it off, and that's what we're just watching now, is the fact that senator reid is announcing that everyone's going to be putting off their job on voting about this and figuring out, whether or not, as you say, everyone's going to be suffering -- >> i don't think everybody -- >> -- on august the 2nd if we default. >> i don't agree that everybody is putting off their job. i think the issue is the

american people, overwhelmingly, every single poll -- >> but if your job is to be there for the american people, isn't that ultimately -- >> we're there for the american people. >> yes, you are. >> what the american people are saying, overwhelmingly, poll after poll, is the wealthiest people, large corporations, should contribute to deficit reduction. and they are not doing it. and i think the american people are extremely angry and upset, and frustrated, about that reality. >> senator, i know that you have pushed along with senator harkin for the president to use the 14th amendment to raise the debt ceiling. do you think that that is something that still needs to be a viable option, even though there is the indication that this should get done tomorrow by 1:00 p.m.? >> using the 14th amendment is getting the job done. what the president is essentially saying is that rather than making cuts to working people, and not asking people on top to contribute at all, he is going to use his constitutional authority, his responsibility, to the protect the faith and credit of the

american people, make sure that seniors get their social security checks, and that our soldiers, who are out there putting their lives on the line, actually get paid. so i do believe that given the choice between defaulting, boehner or reid, using the 14th amendment is the most sensible approach at this point that there is. >> senator bernie sanders. sir, nice to have you on tonight. thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> joining me once again are nbc's chuck todd and andrea mitchell. chuck, i'll start with you. we're hearing there from the senator, saying that we should, you know, be expecting to have these votes. not could -- okay, sorry. chuck's gone for right now, but andrea mitchell's standing by. andrea, as i was talking with the senator there, and you can tell he's pretty spirited about what's going on in washington, d.c., right now. and as an independent, he certainly is a very interesting person to talk to on his take on all of this. but when he says that senator reid should have the votes for tomorrow, not could he, but should have the votes for

tomorrow, what does that indicate to you? >> well, first of all, bernie sanders reflects a very important part of the democratic base. and that is also, there's a counterpart in the house. and that is one of the concerns that surely senator reid, the white house have to be worrying about. because they have to have enough house votes as well to get this thing passed, whatever this thing is. i think as you heard chuck was talking about some of the potential triggers that could be worked on. i think one other thing that i think they are looking at is how the timing of the expiration of the bush tax cuts could possibly be something that could be finessed, could be used as not a violation of the revenue pledge and could produce some money, because those bush tax cuts were to expire, as you know, in january of 2013. that certainly could be part of the component or could be one component of how to get enough revenue on that second part of the budget savings that are

needed to make this a credible deal, and that's one of the big problems here, is making ate credible deal. there's been a lot of criticism of what senator reid first proposed, that it was, quote, gimmicky, that some of the budget cuts were fictitious or notional involving defense cuts from savings from the iraq and afghanistan wars, savings that have not yet been realized and that are not itemized. so, i mean, all of these things are on the table. clearly from what senator reid said, in contrast really to what he said around 6:15 this evening on the east coast, when he went to the floor, what he said just now is that there are talks going on at the white house. we've known this all day, but earlier in the evening, he was pushing back, strongly, against the suggestion by senator mcconnell that these talks were producing something, that there was some momentum going on. now he's suggesting that the white house wants more time. this cuts both way. it indicates that either they need the more time because they are getting somewhere or they

need more time because it's such a desperate situation that calling the vote right now would not be productive. >> chuck, i know as i was coming back to you, you were on the telephone. could you fill us in on what you were learning about what we just saw from the floor with senator reid? >> well, what it is, it goes back to some of the various triggers. and one of the ones that i had been hearing about for a while that has gained some popularity, it's this idea with of you figure out sort of cross the board cuts in different percentages. so that would be the type of cuts that also would be with painful to republicans. so you would have just a blank percentage. it wouldn't be the same percentage for all the different buckets. social security would not be in that bucket at all. but maybe medicare would be in some form or another. maybe 3%, 4%, something like that across the board if it didn't get done. an across-the-board painful cut in the pentagon budget, which you saw today speaker boehner attack the harry reid bill,

simply on -- because one of the small differences was really about $200 billion over ten years in pentagon cuts that harry reid included and speaker boehner did not. a few other buckets of, you know, agriculture subsidies, which would be very popular to any midwestern senators, republican or democratic alike. transportation, one of those things that is fairly universally accepted. so that's among -- that seems to be gaining some traction as a potential trigger there. and then, also, figuring out, you know, if this super committee fails, do you have gang of six thrown back in there in some form or another too? so that's the type of triggers they're working on now. >> andrea, as you were listening to senator bernie sanders and the conversation we were having when it came time to talk about this really having an impact on so many people when it boils down to it, especially our

military, and i know our colleague, jim mic klaszewsmikls been traveling in afghanistan with admiral mike mullen, and there the troops were very curious about whether or not this meant they were going to get their paychecks. and these are the real people that are sticking their necks out a mile for all of us. >> well, it was outrageous. just the fact -- just watching mik's report really made a lot of people angry, because it was -- it's ludicrous to think that the house and the senate are arguing over this with the white house while the men and women on the front lines in afghanistan, and also in iraq, but the once that mik was covering in afghanistan are asking, are we going to get paid? and they're living paycheck to paycheck. and tahey've got families back home that are relying on those paychecks. and for them to be told by the outgoing chairman of the joint chiefs, mike mullen, who is a really stand-up guy for the troops, that he cannot assure them that they're going to get their pay, that brought it home,

i think, more powerfully than anything that has happened in this debate. and if the men and women in the senate and the men and women in the house were watching television tonight and saw that, they ought to be hanging their heads. >> chuck, what do you think the surprises we can expect over the next 12 hours to be? would it be the fact that it's going to be -- we may see the reid bill go away completely, and hearing that these negotiations continue with the white house, it could be something that's more evolved out of mitch mcconnell's own doing? >> look, that has always been the hope here out of the senate with a lot of senators, democrat and republican alike, that i've talked to. which is that if they can get a 75/25 margin for whatever they agree to, and frankly, you're not going to get that many republicans on board unless mcconnell is supportive of this, then that makes it a foregone conclusion in the house. makes it a lot -- it means that there is going to be -- there's

going to be a lot of pressure on the house, to the point of, they'll get it done. and the leadership of both sides, when you look at something that large. so the goal is for a lot of these senators to get the largest margin. it's not just simply -- you know, on one hand, harry reid could have to claw it out, and that could be -- i don't think the politics for that ultimately in the long run is good for mitch mcconnell, because harry reid might just claw it out. and then it looks like democrats are having to do this essentially by themselves. so that is not -- and that makes the house vote that much harder and all of that stuff, and that's not good for the economy. so the goal is to get the largest margin you can get out of the senate and a deal that has mcconnell on board, get you that margin of say, 80/20, 75/25. >> andrea, with mcconnell taking so much front and center attention away from what harry reid is doing, maybe on the sides with the white house, is that basically an indication that other republican senators

are basically looking for mitch mcconnell to give a wink and a nod, the permission to go along with what they would craft? >> well, there's some very interesting personal dynamics going on here, clearly. we've been talking tonight about how mitch mcconnell has a communicational line of communications with joe biden, they served together, they have a relationship. you could see on the floor tonight that the relationship between mitch mcconnell and harry reid is not that warm and fuzzy. but there are others who do work behind the scenes, kent conrad clearly is one, who's been working with a number of republicans. so those relationships. the other precaution i would have is that there are institutional rivalries between the house and the senate. and as everything that has happened in this drama has not been predictable. you've seen house members going their own way, abandoning their leader, abandoning the speaker.

so it's not entirely clear to me that it's going to be that easy to get whatever the senate produces through the house, depending on what kind of vote they have in the senate. it certainly would be helpful. i just think that they are going to have to be very careful about this thing blowing up in the house the way the t.a.r.p. did. >> chuck, andrea, thanks. we'll be coming back with everybody in just a moment with congresswoman barbara lee of california. but just to update you on what we've been watching, senator harry reid came out moments ago saying that the cloture vote on the reid bill will be put off by 12 hours. it was scheduled for 1:00 a.m. tomorrow. it's now going to be at 1:00 p.m. i found one that uses robots instead of real people. 'cuz robots work for free. robot 1:good morning... robot 1:...female child. sfx: modem dial-up noise woman: flaws? yeah, um, maybe.

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hi, everyone. welcome baa to our coverage of debt debate on capitol hill. the senate is now in recess until noon tomorrow. then at 1:00 p.m. eastern time, it is expected that a key test vote, which will then determine if the congress can get an

agreement on raising the debt ceiling by monday or tuesday to make our default deadline. we want to talk now with congresswoman barbara lee of california who is joining us. congresswoman, it's nice to see you this evening. i know that we've been watching the travails of washington, d.c., go on this evening, and what do you make of what we just witnessed with the senator's announcement, senator reid's announcement that the 1:00 a.m. vote is going to be pushed by 12 hours until 1:00 p.m. tomorrow? >> well, obviously, as senator reid said, the republicans have chosen to go into their next play act in this theater and in this drama, which is to filibuster. which is outrageous on such an important issue as raising the debt ceiling. i have to say, also, that, you know, when you hear that this deal is being put forth now, perhaps in the image of senator mcconnell, we have to think about what that deal may look like. and of course, we must remember that senator mcconnell, i think

it was back in october of last year, said that his first priority was to make sure that this was a one-term presidency for president obama. secondly, we have not heard much about jobs. when you talk about any deal that is being put together, we know in terms of deficit reduction the way you reduce the deficit is by investment in job creation. that discussion is not even on the table. and that is a shame and disgrace, given the huge unemployment rates that the -- that our people have and that we're feeling now in terms of the pain and suffering of the american people. thirdly, people are being asked to pay for this deficit, and in many of these deals who are being proposed, who did not cause this deficit. we are looking at senior citizens, we're looking at them talking about medicare, social security, medicaid, triggers that don't involve any revenue increases. we're not -- i don't hear them

talking much anymore about a balanced approach. they're not talking about, as senator sanders mentioned, the millionaires and billionaires who have gotten off the hook in terms of their taxes. two wars, the pentagon budget. there are ways -- oil company subsidies -- there are ways we can raise revenue, but we don't hear much about that. we hear more about cuts. what type of cuts are going to take place. and that is a shame and disgrace, because we have 43 million people living in poverty and it's growing. so i think we have to be very careful with whatever deal comes forward that we do not allow poverty rates to increase by forcing those who are middle income to fall into the ranks of the poor. and finally, i have to say that i think the 14th amendment option is what the president should do at this point. we cannot go into default -- >> i wanted to ask you about that. do you think -- that's never been done before. a lot of people didn't even know that it existed, really, when it came down to doing something like this, but we've never really witnessed anything like

this in washington, d.c., where our elected officials, like yourself, are describing this government that's being hijacked. so do you think that the 14th amendment really is the viable option that should be discussed? >> absolutely. this is a national emergency. the republicans want to take us to the brink. they have taken us to the brink of economic collapse. when we're in a state of emergency, as we are now, i think it's absolutely essential that the president exercise his constitutional authority and should do that. i think that in itself would make a heck of a lot of sense, it would keep us from going into a catastrophic collapse, and it would also ensure that the next day we can get on with the business of trying to figure out how to create jobs for the american people, how to begin to look at a reasonable and balanced approach to reduce our deficit and how we can move forward to make sure that this american dream does not continue to be a nightmare for so many

people. it's about time we say, enough is enough. we should have never bought into the tea party's plan and negotiations and game play in terms of allowing deficit reduction to be attached to any debt ceiling bill. we should have had a clean debt ceiling bill. that's the way it has been done over and over again, under democratic and republican presidents. we should have done it this time. why in the world would we try to put the american people in this terrible predicament? and that's what the tea party has done. and so i think we need to -- the clock is ticking. i think the president should pull the trigger, exercise his constitutional prerogative, do the right thing, move on to the next day and begin to really come up with a jobs program, investment in our infrastructure, try to figure out how we can allow for people to move forward and live the american dream. as i said earlier, people are suffering, they're desperate. they're on edge. people don't know what is taking

place, what's going to happen. they don't know. and it's really a shame and disgrace that our military men -- we're in the middle of two, yes, three wars. and for them to be questioning and wondering whether or not they're going to be paid, that's very unpatriotic. that is wrong. it's morally repugnant. and we need to stop these shenanigans. and the republicans, we saw what happened today. you know, these are political ploys, both in the house and in the senate. the tea party ran on this agenda. they ran on dismantling government. that's what they want to do. they want to dismantle government. >> they were elected there, though. they were elected. they were put in by americans just like you and me. >> they were put in because people were very frustrated for a variety of reasons. but i can tell you one thing. their constituents are unemployeded, their constituents are on medicare, their constituents are on medicaid, their constituents are on social security. and i don't believe their constituents believed that they would come here to destroy their

lives. i don't accept that, thomas, that is just not true. so we have to -- and the next elections, of course, will show us if, in fact, people really, you know, bought into that, their agenda. and i think they've shown us who they are. >> congresswoman barbara lee, it's nice to see you tonight. thanks for your time. >> glad to be with you. we'll be right back with the very latest from the white house as well as capitol hill. you're watching msnbc, the place for politics, don't go anywhere. yup, america's favorite. so we're celebrating the honey sweetness, crunchy oats and... hey! don't forget me!! honey nut cheerios. make it your favorite too!

hi, everybody. welcome back to our continuing coverage right here on msnbc of the still unresolved debt ceiling fight. as we've been discussing, senate majority leader harry reid has now postponed a vote on his plan. this vote will now take place tomorrow at 1:00 p.m. in order to allow more time for a deal. you may remember that the vote was going to take place at 1:00 a.m. it's now been pushed back by some 12 hours. for more, let me bring in nbc news' kristen welker from the white house, as well as capitol hill correspondent, luke russert. luke, with the reid bill now put off by this 12-hour stretch, until 1:00 p.m., does that indicate that he can really get

the bill done by then, or is this just a desperate hail mary? >> reporter: i wouldn't call it a desperate hail mary, thomas. i spoke to one aide who's been close to this on the republican side, and they said this was actually the first glimmer of hope we've seen all weekend. that, in fact, the talks between the white house and mitch mcconnell had picked up to a degree. folks on the republican side are also adamant that harry reid was not going to be able to reach cloture tonight on his plan, whatever which way he changed it up to try to republican members. one aide said, if harry reid were able to get cloture tonight, i would personally cut off my right hand on msnbc. so they were quite confident that was not going to occur. but what i'm hearing, maybe a white house meeting tomorrow between congressional leaders and somehow a way to figure out what exactly, what chuck was speaking about earlier, will be this trigger. obviously, with washington speak, to get a second extension of the debt ceiling through 2012. if this bipartisan commission is mentioned in the bill, which is

supposed to come up to a solution to enact spending cuts can't reach it, what will be the painful trigger that would hurt both sides that would force them to try to cut spending before the next extension of the debt limit. now, thomas, assuming this deal gets done tomorrow, there is all inclination now, there is hope, there is a glimmer, it would go to the senate, over to the house on tuesday. and just in my time over here, i've been talking to my house sources on the republican and democratic side, you've got a lot of nervous house democrats. i spoke to one, they said they're worried the president might be giving up too much with republicans. and on the right side, republicans said, we don't necessarily know what's going on in this situation, but we don't want our legislation, the boehner bill, to be watered down in any way. so what comes from the senate and goes to the house, what's the coalition look like over there? will it be majority republican with some democrats or majority democrat with some republicans, but i would say that if you wanted to speak to a group that was most nervous about the negotiations going on between the senate and the white house

now, it's liberal democrats in the house. they felt the president has gone too far to the center, too far to the right, actually, of this entire process, and they're worried that in order to try and get the debt limit extension through 2012, that just might in fact occur again. so while there is a glimmer of hope in the senate and there's hope probably all around the capitol that perhaps this terrible thing that could happen to the economy is perhaps not going -- could be averted, there is still some fear, though, thomas, on the democratic side, especially, and some on the republican side that some of the principles they've been fighting for this whole time might be compromised in an effort to get the debt ceiling through 2012 so that the issue doesn't have to be looked upon again. >> luke, thank you. and kristen, senator reid did say in his announcement that negotiations at the white house were ongoing at this hour. what is the latest from the white house? >> reporter: hi, there, thomas. well, white house officials first of all in regards to senator reid's announcement that the vote will be tomorrow, they're saying, look, this is

not a setback. they're saying, it's just being pushed back by about 12 hours. it's an indication that we are making progress. we don't have any announcements right now about meetings here at the white house tomorrow, but, thomas, i certainly wouldn't be surprised if there were meetings with congressional leaders here at the white house. of course, we know that president obama did speak with senate minority leader mitch mcconnell earlier today. he also met with nancy pelosi and harry reid. and while they're not giving us a real sense of exactly what occurred in those conversations and meetings, we know that one of the topics was those triggers that you just heard luke talk about, really, the sticking point here. how does a bipartisan congressional committee find more deficit reductions in the coming years, what are the triggers or the things that would motivate both parties to do that in the future? so those are really the sticking points right now. and president obama's main thing that he would like to see is this debt ceiling increased through 2013. of course, as speaker boehner

with was proposing that we do that in two stages. so these are some of the ideas that are really being bandied about right now. but the white house's main message to congressional leaders and to the public is that we're running out of time. lots going on behind the scenes. but, of course, on friday we had president obama come out and speak to the public and say, look, we need compromise here. he even called on people to call their congressional leaders to motivate them to get a deal done here. because if this isn't done by august 2nd, there's going to be a lot of political blame all around from the white house to democrats and republicans on the hill. thomas? >> nbc's kristen welker. kristen, thank you. also our thanks to luke russert. coming up, a preview of tomorrow's events and what it means for the ongoing debt debate. don't go anywhere. we're back after this. it's all the same. nothing changes. then try this. freestyle lite® blood glucose test strip. sure, but it's not gonna-- [beep] wow. yep, that's the patented freestyle zipwik™ design. did it just-- [both] target the blood? yeah, drew it right in. the test starts fast. you need just a third the blood of one touch.®

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hi, everybody, and welcome back. at this hour, negotiations at the white house, according to senator reid, are ongoing. a cloture vote in the senate will happen tomorrow now at 1:00 p.m. joining me is msnbc contributor

joy ann reid and msnbc political analyst, michael eric dyson. and joy ann, it's nice to see you here tonight. i know you're getting a late call to get in here as fast as you can, but what do you make of the news that we're getting that the 1:00 a.m. vote that was scheduled for tomorrow, 1:00 a.m., right after the stroke of midnight tonight, has now been pushed this 12 hours? what does that indicate to your senses? >> well, actually, thomas, it sounds to me like progress. chuck todd just tweeted that about five senators will be pulling an all-nighter at the white house. and i was really fascinated in the last couple of segments ago to hear andrea mitchell as well as chuck todd talk about what's now on the table. it looks to me what's being negotiated now are senators trying to protect the things they put into the tax code. people want to keep those things out of the triggers that they care about. if it's farm subsidies, you'll have senators from those states where there are large farming interests, worried that their items will end up in the triggers. people are worried about certain

subsidies that they have a responsibility to represent to their constituents. people are trying to keep things they put in the tax code safe and also trying to protect themselves from blame, from negative cuts that might impact them politically. the sausage making of getting a deal done that is ugly, but it sounds like they're getting something done. >> mike, as we talk about these next 12 hours, some are going to be using it to burn the midnight oil, others will be using it to get a good night's rest. what does it mean for senator reid during this time span to go after those votes that he think he could get to lock in? >> well, as joy-ann has indicated, this is the way in which we've got a kind of optic of how the congress actually does its work. and a lot of people don't realize how much give-and-take, how much behind-the-scenes negotiations until the ninth hour, until 11th hour, i'm sorry, prevail. but i think harry reid faces a difficult situation. because what he's got to do is figure out, does he have enough

votes here to be able to carry his proposal forward or does he have to negotiate a little bit more to work out the kinks here, to make certain that he can get three or four or five republicans on his side. those people who are vulnerable, those people, so to speak, who are targeted. those republican senators who have been, themselveses, assaulted by the far right wing of the tea party. and yet those who understand that they've got to be able to give a little to get a little. and i think that this whole purpose of the debt ceiling being raised, being routine is something that we have to keep reinforcing, that only denmark shares with us the necessity of going this route. and what it does show is a powerful spotlight on the ludicrous character of us having to go through all of this, of attaching all kinds of stuff that should have nothing to do with raising the debt ceiling. so given that, harry reid has to figure out, does he have enough votes, can he regain his kind of dignity and authority, because his compatriot, mitch mcconnell,

has done this in run around him, going straight to biden, going straight to the white house, and i think he has to regain relevancy. we keep talking about boehner having to beef up his troops in order to gain his authority back. i think harry reid has a little bit of dusting off to do as well. >> msnbc contributor joy-ann reed and political analyst michael eric dyson. thanks to both of you for joining me tonight. i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> coming up, can this compromise finally be reached? you're watching msnbc, the place for politics.

welcome back. at this hour, we know a vote on the debt limit will be held in the senate tomorrow afternoon. tomorrow afternoon at 1:00 p.m. joining me again is democratic strategist krystal ball, and now i also want to introduce to the conversation, norman goldman, host of the nationally

syndicated "norman goldman radio show," and he's also an attorney. so norm, you are an attorney, as i just said. we've been talking tonight about the 14th amendment option. explain the constitutionality of that and if it really is viable and something the president should consider. >> well, thomas, fortunately, for the last 220-odd years, we haven't had to confront this problem, but now that we're here, the constitution is pretty explicit in giving congress lots of power to pay bills, to coin money, to pay the debts. congress has a lot of authority here. where the president's authority could come in is in the 14th amendment, the fourth paragraph says, the public of the united states shall not be questioned. there's a u.s. supreme court case from 1935 that says the public debt of the united states shall not be questioned. the president does, in my humble opinion, have a very good legal leg to stand on if it comes down to that.

if we're out of options and it's the last minute and it's either we default or the president steps in, he does have a strong legal argument. there are strong legal arguments based on article 1, section "a" of the constitution that congress can make. but whether the supreme court weighs in on sit a whole different question. >> krystal, what's your opinion? the way we're set up as a country with our checks and balances, do you think that the 14th amendment should be used by the president or does it send an overwhelming message of undercutting everybody else out? >> well, no. i think, actually, congressman nadler explained it quite well earlier. congress has given the president two conflicting and irreconcilable demands. they have said, spend "x" dollars, on one hand, and on the other hand, they have said, you are not allowed to borrow enough money to spend "x" dollars. so either way, no matter what decision the president makes, he'll be breaking one law or

another. that being said, the president has essentially taken that option off the table. i suspect that we are going to come to a deal, because the whole dynamic of this entire negotiation has been republicans literally betting the farm that democrats will ultimately do the right thing and save the country from a default. and that's why we've seen over and over again democrats moving further and further and further to the right, submitting to all of the republican demands. i think we'll continue to see that with the triggers, and the bottom line is, default is terrible, but the deals that we're seeing are also going to be really bad for the economy. >> norm, how are you gauging reaction from people on your radio show? >> well, they're really angry at the president, thomas. i've got to tell you, it's near unanimous. there's a perception, widespread, that he has caved. he's taken tax hikes off the table, he's given them 98% of what they want and they're acting childish and he's giving in basically, he's negotiating with terrorists. and all the e-mails are

overwhelming. you know, it's funny, thomas, when we started the show two years ago, and i started criticizing the president as being weak and a bad negotiator, the audience split 50/50. half the people said i was an idiot for undermining a democratic president, half the people said i wasn't being hard enough on him. now it's about 90 to 10 in terms of the president being a terrible negotiator and too weak. so he's really lost his base. and it's really hard to watch. because with all the excitement and the energy that he brought into the white house, he's disappointed so many of his supporters and do fear for his re-election. >> we'll see how we move forward with this. krystal ball and norman goldman, thanks for joining me in our conversation tonight. >> thank you, toms. >> absolutely. i want to thank all of you for watching. i'm thomas roberts. we'll have much more coverage of the debt debate starting at 8:00 a.m. tomorrow morning starting right here on msnbc. just a reminder, the 1:00 a.m. vote is pushed, it's now going

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